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CE2000 Power-On Problem


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#16 Bud Bolf

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 07:44 AM

Hi,
Just a comment, I see so many posts from people that have problems with their Crown Power Amps overseas and cannot get service.
Many times this is because they bought them here in the States and then took the Amp overseas.
If it is not because a Service center is too far away, it is that the service center will not even work on the Amp because it was purchased in the USA.
What's up with that?
Money is Money, Zar's is Zar's, etc. etc.

I do not understand that, here in the States if someone came her from Africa with a Amp and it needed Service, both Authorized and un-authorized repair facility's would repair it, no questions asked!
Granted if purchased overseas the Warranty would not apply in the States,
but the cost would be minimal to put it on a Service Bench for just an estimate.

How much in Zar's would it be for someone to look at it?
What if it's something simple?
I had a dead CE2000 that went in for repair and it was repaired with no parts in less than one hour on the bench.
I was initially told a few days for an estimate and then I got a call later in the same afternoon that I dropped it off that I could pick it up the next day!
I was blown away!

Does the lack of Service pertain to ALL Service facility's in Africa or is there only one?

I'm just responding because I feel your pain!
It's no fun with a Dead power Amp!

Good luck,
     Bud

#17 jstutzman

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 10:33 AM

QUOTE(Bud Bolf @ May 5 2006, 07:44 AM)
Hi,
Just a comment, I see so many posts from people that have problems with their Crown Power Amps overseas and cannot get service.
Many times this is because they bought them here in the States and then took the Amp overseas.
If it is not because a Service center is too far away, it is that the service center will not even work on the Amp because it was purchased in the USA.
What's up with that?
Money is Money, Zar's is Zar's, etc. etc.

I do not understand that, here in the States if someone came her from Africa with a Amp and it needed Service, both Authorized and un-authorized repair facility's would repair it, no questions asked!
Granted if purchased overseas the Warranty would not apply in the States,
but the cost would be minimal to put it on a Service Bench for just an estimate.

How much in Zar's would it be for someone to look at it?
What if it's something simple?
I had a dead CE2000 that went in for repair and it was repaired with no parts in less than one hour on the bench.
I was initially told a few days for an estimate and then I got a call later in the same afternoon that I dropped it off that I could pick it up the next day!
I was blown away!

Does the lack of Service pertain to ALL Service facility's in Africa or is there only one?

I'm just responding because I feel your pain!
It's no fun with a Dead power Amp!

Good luck,
     Bud
View Post



International warranty support ----

There is a lot of misunderstanding on Crown’s position on warranty service for our products when they are purchased in one country with the intent to be used in another. The Crown 3 year warranty is in affect with in the country that the products are purchased. The misunderstanding is that if a product is purchased in one country and taken into and used in another country that the warranty is valid with in the country that the produce is taken to. This is not true do to the following reasons.

All of Crown’s and all other Harman Pro distributors are independent distributors that are not owned by Harman, but are under agreement to sell and support our products with in their own country. Please understand that none of the Harman companies pay a commission to our distributors for selling our products.

They are required to purchase our products, warehouse them, market, support and establish a distribution network to sell our products. This is an expense to our distributors and they only receive income when they sell the products to their customers. They do not make any money on warranty service. Since it is at their expense that they provide the service and support they cannot nor do we expect them to support products sold by a different distributor/dealer. That is responsibility of the selling distributor/dealer.

Crown/Harman does not restrict a customer from buying our products and carrying them into a different country for their use. We do however ask them to understand that with the perceived savings that many think they are receiving by doing this that they are also responsible to understand that the warranty is valid, but they will have to return the product to either the selling dealer or to Crown in the USA.

For our international contractors who have projects in various countries and are doing turnkey installations, we give them two choices, either they will supply the needed support to the customer or they contract with our local distributors for the support.

I hope this give you a better understanding of our policy and the reasons for them.

Jerry Stutzman
Director of International Sales
Crown International

#18 Bud Bolf

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 04:28 PM

QUOTE(jstutzman @ May 5 2006, 11:33 AM)
QUOTE(Bud Bolf @ May 5 2006, 07:44 AM)
Hi,
Just a comment, I see so many posts from people that have problems with their Crown Power Amps overseas and cannot get service.
Many times this is because they bought them here in the States and then took the Amp overseas.
If it is not because a Service center is too far away, it is that the service center will not even work on the Amp because it was purchased in the USA.
What's up with that?
Money is Money, Zar's is Zar's, etc. etc.

I do not understand that, here in the States if someone came her from Africa with a Amp and it needed Service, both Authorized and un-authorized repair facility's would repair it, no questions asked!
Granted if purchased overseas the Warranty would not apply in the States,
but the cost would be minimal to put it on a Service Bench for just an estimate.

How much in Zar's would it be for someone to look at it?
What if it's something simple?
I had a dead CE2000 that went in for repair and it was repaired with no parts in less than one hour on the bench.
I was initially told a few days for an estimate and then I got a call later in the same afternoon that I dropped it off that I could pick it up the next day!
I was blown away!

Does the lack of Service pertain to ALL Service facility's in Africa or is there only one?

I'm just responding because I feel your pain!
It's no fun with a Dead power Amp!

Good luck,
     Bud
View Post



International warranty support ----

There is a lot of misunderstanding on Crown’s position on warranty service for our products when they are purchased in one country with the intent to be used in another. The Crown 3 year warranty is in affect with in the country that the products are purchased. The misunderstanding is that if a product is purchased in one country and taken into and used in another country that the warranty is valid with in the country that the produce is taken to. This is not true do to the following reasons.

All of Crown’s and all other Harman Pro distributors are independent distributors that are not owned by Harman, but are under agreement to sell and support our products with in their own country. Please understand that none of the Harman companies pay a commission to our distributors for selling our products.

They are required to purchase our products, warehouse them, market, support and establish a distribution network to sell our products. This is an expense to our distributors and they only receive income when they sell the products to their customers. They do not make any money on warranty service. Since it is at their expense that they provide the service and support they cannot nor do we expect them to support products sold by a different distributor/dealer. That is responsibility of the selling distributor/dealer.

Crown/Harman does not restrict a customer from buying our products and carrying them into a different country for their use. We do however ask them to understand that with the perceived savings that many think they are receiving by doing this that they are also responsible to understand that the warranty is valid, but they will have to return the product to either the selling dealer or to Crown in the USA.

For our international contractors who have projects in various countries and are doing turnkey installations, we give them two choices, either they will supply the needed support to the customer or they contract with our local distributors for the support.

I hope this give you a better understanding of our policy and the reasons for them.

Jerry Stutzman
Director of International Sales
Crown International
View Post


Hi Jerry,
I for one do not have ANY PROBLEM with Crown or the policies set forth above!
I understand that the product Warranty is per Country of purchase.

My wonderment is that, since no Warranty is valid in Africa after being purchased in  the USA per the OP, why a Service Facility, would not still let the OP bring in the Amp and let the customer just PAY for the Repair.
That was my Zar is Zar comment.
The Crown Authorized Repair Facility in my area (South Florida) is just that, a repair facility, in the business of repairing Amps and not Selling them, so there is no conflict of interest, just business is business!

If a person is going to purchase a Amp in the USA to defer the high cost to purchase in their country, then they should realize that any repairs are up to them!

A Guy said:
QUOTE
Problim is that they will not service it. it is going to cost me alot of money to get them fixed. they where bought from over seas and they wont service them here. so there is realy nothing any one can do for me?


The part I do not understand, is the part in bold, where "A Guy" say's
that the Service facility WILL NOT repair them!
Is he speaking totally per a Warranty repair, or that even if he agrees to directly pay the facility, they will still not repair the Amp.
Let us know Guy.
If he means that they will not fix it, even if he pays for it, well, It's anti American!LOL!
That's why I said that here in the states, if you have the money you can get
anything fixed, including Crown Amps!
I guess we are just spoiled by the free enterprise system!

Ahhhh the good ole USA!

Later,
   Bud

#19 A_Guy

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 04:29 PM

The problem isnt that they wont fix it... the problem is that they cant fix it. Phoned through and asked, they said they dont/wont repair the amp boards cause it is a waist of time, instead they will replace the boards.

So at the end of the day it's still going to cost thousands...

#20 jstutzman

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE(A_Guy @ May 7 2006, 04:29 PM)
The problem isnt that they wont fix it... the problem is that they cant fix it. Phoned through and asked, they said they dont/wont repair the amp boards cause it is a waist of time, instead they will replace the boards.

So at the end of the day it's still going to cost thousands...
View Post


Thanks for the reply,

Any time you run into a situation where you can not get service or they can not fix it, let us know and we will work with you. Please understand that in some countries technical skills may not be at the same level as here in the US.

A distributor has our contact information for assistance on service issue and we encourage them to contact us for assistance if the service information that we provide to them on our service web site does not help them. Crown also holds official service schools internationally in which all of our distributors are invited to attend. We try to do our best to provide quality service world wide.

If you need service on your amplifier and can not get it locally, please contact our technical support center and they will assist you


Jstutzman

#21 Bud Bolf

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 09:06 AM

QUOTE(jstutzman @ May 7 2006, 07:46 PM)
QUOTE(A_Guy @ May 7 2006, 04:29 PM)
The problem isnt that they wont fix it... the problem is that they cant fix it. Phoned through and asked, they said they dont/wont repair the amp boards cause it is a waist of time, instead they will replace the boards.

So at the end of the day it's still going to cost thousands...
View Post


Thanks for the reply,

Any time you run into a situation where you can not get service or they can not fix it, let us know and we will work with you. Please understand that in some countries technical skills may not be at the same level as here in the US.

A distributor has our contact information for assistance on service issue and we encourage them to contact us for assistance if the service information that we provide to them on our service web site does not help them. Crown also holds official service schools internationally in which all of our distributors are invited to attend. We try to do our best to provide quality service world wide.

If you need service on your amplifier and can not get it locally, please contact our technical support center and they will assist you


Jstutzman
View Post


WOW,
A Electronics repair facility that does not repair to Component Level!
I have never heard of that before.
I service Radiology Equipment for my day job and have to repair PCB's to Component Level in the field.
When I serviced Copiers, we did very limited PCB repair, but still did repair to component level.

I am sure that Crown will help you and will probably want to speak to your repair facility.
If they routinely just swap PCB's and never repair them, I would think that that has got to be costing Crown a lot of (Warranty) money, that they would not normally need to reimburse to a Qualified Component level Repair Facility.
Big difference in $$$ between a few Components, and an entire Main PCB!

The only option of course, is if the board was just literally Fried beyond repair!
However from your description and the fact that the Amp does power on, yet  just flashes red, (Fault)  with no smoke or burn smell's, it does not sound like it's fried beyond all recognition!

The plot thickens.
    Bud
PS. Guy, turn on the Amp and give it a good smell in the vents, does it smell
that usually wonderful good component smell or a fried out burn smell?

#22 A_Guy

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:54 PM

there is nothing burnt. as i said it was a fault that came and went... and now it is here to stay. there is no burning spell.

#23 jstutzman

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE(A_Guy @ May 8 2006, 01:54 PM)
there is nothing burnt. as i said it was a fault that came and went... and now it is here to stay. there is no burning spell.
View Post



Hi Bud,

I understand your desire for the PC boards to be repaired at the component levels. I use to work on computers (main frame, not pc's) and fix them at the component level, but after the advent of the high density IC's it was no longer feasible to repair to the component level and it was more cost affective to replace the circuit boards.

This is due to the time and cost of locating the failed component compared to the price of a new board. Unfortunately amplifiers today are falling in to the same category with the advent of IC's and SMT's in use.

These new components allow us to give you more features at a lower cost, but also have the side affect of making it more complex and costly to repair to the component level. I am sure that you would not be willing to pay $60+ per hour for a service tech to try and locate a failing component with in a complex circuit compared to the cost of a replacement circuit board.

Yes the cost of a component is less then the circuit board, but the labor cost of locating and replacing the right component is much higher in most cases. This also allows us to have the units repaired and returned to the customers in a short time. This is important as most of our customers use our products for their business.

#24 A_Guy

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 02:43 PM

Well I use the product's for a business aswell, it's just that it seems to get alittle expensive replacing boards the whole time. gone through 4 CE2000 boards in the last 2 years. i admit that the failing of the first two was my own fault (had a roof collapse in a rainstorm , the amp's ended up under about a foot of water).

It's just the second two just stopped working, if they blew up and there was sparks and fire... i would say *beep*... replace the boards. it's just there was a intermitant fault.. and then they just died, and i don't seem like the first person with this problem.

surely after one amp has been fixed, it's a *beep* of alot easyer to trace the problem.

I am personally blaming the humidity here where i live, it's just that i expect a pro amplifier to be able to continue working. The club is about 100 m away from the sea, and there is no aircon. It's just really disappointing and is getting alittle expensive to replace them.

#25 A_Guy

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 06:54 AM

hehe... the *beep* thing rox tongue.gif

#26 Bud Bolf

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 08:20 AM

Hi,
I agree that the overall Labor cost in regard to cost of a new PCB is always a consideration.
In Medical Equipment repair our labor costs are quite a bit over $60.00 an hour,
(LOL) a lot more!
The PCB's are also in the thousands of dollars!
Downtime is a big consideration as well, with paying patients, and Hospital needs, even a next day delivery of a PCB can be un-acceptable!
Each repair has it's own parameters that rarely fall into black and white.
I'm sure that per Crown's power amp repair process, the best judgements are always made as to, labor to parts costs and the Customer's downtime!

I'll get to know that process one more time, because yesterday my CE4000 had a Spark exit the from the front of the Amp, followed by a dead amp and potent burn smell!
This will be the third time that this fairly new CE4000 will be sent in for repair!
Also in the two previous repairs, it was not repaired as you discuss above!
No PCB's were replaced, the PCB was instead Component repaired!
I know, I spoke to a Crown rep who explained to me what Components were replaced!
I am now wondering if maybe the PCB itself should have been replaced!

I am glad that I purchased the Extended Warranty but I really hoped that I would never need it!
At this rate, it looks as though it may be a frustrating Warranty period,
though I hope not!

Well that's it for now, I have to call Crown Tech Support and make arrangements for repair!
Ironic, I am in a repair post and now my Amp needs repair, at least I'm in the US of A with a US of A Warranty,
so I still have it better than, A Guy.
Take care,
     Bud

#27 jstutzman

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 03:50 PM

QUOTE(Bud Bolf @ May 10 2006, 08:20 AM)
Hi,
I agree that the overall Labor cost in regard to cost of a new PCB is always a consideration.
In Medical Equipment repair our labor costs are quite a bit over $60.00 an hour,
(LOL) a lot more!
The PCB's are also in the thousands of dollars!
Downtime is a big consideration as well, with paying patients, and Hospital needs, even a next day delivery of a PCB can be un-acceptable!
Each repair has it's own parameters that rarely fall into black and white.
I'm sure that per Crown's power amp repair process, the best judgements are always made as to, labor to parts costs and the Customer's downtime!

I'll get to know that process one more time, because yesterday my CE4000 had a Spark exit the from the front of the Amp, followed by a dead amp and potent burn smell!
This will be the third time that this fairly new CE4000 will be sent in for repair!
Also in the two previous repairs, it was not repaired as you discuss above!
No PCB's were replaced, the PCB was instead Component repaired!
I know, I spoke to a Crown rep who explained to me what Components were replaced!
I am now wondering if maybe the PCB itself should have been replaced!

I am glad that I purchased the Extended Warranty but I really hoped that I would never need it!
At this rate, it looks as though it may be a frustrating Warranty period,
though I hope not!

Well that's it for now, I have to call Crown Tech Support and make arrangements for repair!
Ironic, I am in a repair post and now my Amp needs repair, at least I'm in the US of A with a US of A Warranty,
so I still have it better than, A Guy.
Take care,
     Bud
View Post


Hi Bud,

Sorry to hear of the failure. Please have it returned to the service center and let them know of your history and they will take care of the unit for you.

Thanks for using Crown.

Regards,
jstutzman

#28 A_Guy

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 07:02 PM

Well i have just given up with crown amplifiers. I truley loved my CE2000's, but now i am just fed up.

I bought some replacement boards from here in south africa, cost me a arm and a leg, put them in on tuesday. pretty much tested them the entire week. played wonderfully. tonight i take them to a gig, they sounded wonderfull, much better than the amp's that i was using while they where being repaired. and then at 1 am in the morning the one's clip light's come on and stay on. the amp is still playing fine, but for some reason the clip light's are just staying on. tryed turning the amp on and off... didnt make a difference, unplugged the signal and still no difference. the light's are on and showing no signs of turning off.

I love the CE2000's, but just cant continue replacing main boards all the time. so this can be counted as board no 3.

Dissapointed crown customer.

#29 DGlass

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 03:05 PM

QUOTE(A_Guy @ May 12 2006, 07:02 PM)
Well i have just given up with crown amplifiers. I truley loved my CE2000's, but now i am just fed up.

I bought some replacement boards from here in south africa, cost me a arm and a leg, put them in on tuesday. pretty much tested them the entire week. played wonderfully. tonight i take them to a gig, they sounded wonderfull, much better than the amp's that i was using while they where being repaired. and then at 1 am in the morning the one's clip light's come on and stay on. the amp is still playing fine, but for some reason the clip light's are just staying on. tryed turning the amp on and off... didnt make a difference, unplugged the signal and still no difference. the light's are on and showing no signs of turning off.

I love the CE2000's, but just cant continue replacing main boards all the time. so this can be counted as board no 3.

Dissapointed crown customer.
View Post

I am sorry to hear you are still having problems.
I hate to say it but there has to be something else going on that is causing the boards to fry as I have never heard of anyone needing to replace main boards that many times.
There may have been more wrong with the amp than was originally diagnosed when your roof collapse in a rainstorm and the "amps ended up under about a foot of water". Possibly an intermitant transformer, regulator or even a faulty water damaged connection.
The fault lights are the indication the amp is having a problem and that could be one of several things the fault circuit monitors for.
I would say you are going to have to dig a little deeper to find the resolution to their issues as there is more here than meets the eye going on and throwing new board at it isn't fixing it.

#30 A_Guy

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 05:09 PM

well if the fault lights came on i would say there is maybe a problem, but it isnt the fault light's. it's the clip lights, they are on and not going off. the amplifier still play's fine. did a test today, the audio is still clear. it's just the clip light's seem to be stuck on.

i am not that sure if there is something wrong with the transformer, as i said, the last 2 boards i bought worked fine for quite sometime before giving any problems. i am pretty sure it's the humidity that messed them up.