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XS900 "v" CE4000?


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#1 prkm123

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Posted 09 April 2006 - 02:49 PM

Hi,

I need an amp that will deliver 600W dual into 8ohms.  Both the XS900 and the CE4000 will do this.  I can get the XS900 for €1,039 and the CE4000 for €2,069.  If they both deliver the same power at 8ohms, why would someone spend approx €1,000 more on the CE4000?

Regards,
Paul.

#2 Bud Bolf

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Posted 10 April 2006 - 05:33 PM

QUOTE(prkm123 @ Apr 9 2006, 03:49 PM)
Hi,

I need an amp that will deliver 600W dual into 8ohms.  Both the XS900 and the CE4000 will do this.  I can get the XS900 for €1,039 and the CE4000 for €2,069.  If they both deliver the same power at 8ohms, why would someone spend approx €1,000 more on the CE4000?

Regards,
Paul.
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Hi Paul,
I'll take a crack at your question since I own both the CE4000 and the XS900.
Over here in the States the price difference between the two amps are not as wide as you suggested.
Since the CE4000 will soon if not already be discontinued the prices have dropped.
But be that as it is.
The CE4000 has nothing in common with the XS900 except maybe the 8ohm 600 watts.

The CE4000 is:

QUOTE
• Patented, award-winning (Class I (BCA) technology)
delivers high efficiency and superb sound (the I-Techs are Class I / BCA)
• Extremely reliable; keeps running under the
harshest of conditions
Switch-mode power supply with PFC (powerfactor
correction) allows world-wide use
•  (Not in the XS amps)
Sub-bass output via integral 4-position highpass
and 3-position low-pass filter sets for
each channel
• Compatible with Crown SST (system solution
topologies) input modules (Not in the XS)
• Choice of dual output connectors: 5-way binding
post plus Neutrik® Speakon®, 5-way binding
post plus barrier strip, or dual Neutrik Speakon
3-speed Fan On Demand  (XS has 2 fans that run 1 speed continously)
• Weighs just 34 pounds


The CE4000 also has Input senstivity adjustments where in the XS900 is set
at 1.4 volts though Granted the 1.4 is all that I use.

CE4000 Specs:
From Here: CE4000 DataSheet
QUOTE
2 ohm Dual  1400W**
4 ohm Dual  1200W
8 ohm Dual  600W
8 ohm Bridge-Mono  2400W
4 ohm Bridge-Mono  2800W**
CE 4000
**? 200V line voltage provides 1800W (2 ohm dual)
and 3600W (4 ohm bridge-mono)
1 kHz Power
*1 kHz Power: refers to maximum average power in watts
at 1 kHz with 0.5% THD.


The XS900 is:
From here: XSSeries Data Sheet

QUOTE
• Housed in a rugged, all-steel 2U chassis
• Efficient forced-air fan prevents excessive
thermal buildup
• XLR-1/4" combo and Phoenix-style inputs,
daisy-chain XLR outputs, touch-proof binding
post outputs and Speakon® outputs
• Precision detented level controls, power
switch, and eight LEDs which indicate signal
and clip for each channel, power, AC mains,
bridge mode, temperature and fault conditions
• Microprocessor-controlled protection system


XS900 Specs:

QUOTE
2-ohm Dual (per ch.) 1,200W**
4-ohm Dual (per ch.) 900W
8-ohm Dual (per ch.) 600W
4-ohm Bridge  2,500W**
8-ohm Bridge  2,100W


As you can see from the above as well if you go to the DataSheets for each amp
you will see that the 600 watts @ 8ohm dual is about the only thing that they
have in common.

You have to decide if you need the changes between the CE4000 and the XS900.
Read up on them and decide which will work better for you.
You may want to keep an eye out for the new XTi 4000 though.

What exact application are you wanting the Amps for? ie. Subs, Mids, Hi's, Monitors?

The CE4000 is on my Subs and is a Great Sub Amp.
The XS900 varies back and forth as a second Sub amp or Monitors, if it is a small gig and I only need 1 Sub Cab.
On my Subs they run Bridged.

Later,
   Bud

#3 prkm123

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 08:55 AM

Thanks for the reply Bud,

The amp would be driving 2 subs rated at 600W into 8ohms.  Do you find a difference in sound from the XS900 to the CE4000?  Do you also think it is better to run subs in Mono and Tops in Stereo?  
The music we play is mainly Heavy Rock covers.  (Judas Priest, AlterBridge, Thin Lizzy etc,)

Regards,
Paul.

#4 Bud Bolf

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 09:32 AM

QUOTE(prkm123 @ Apr 11 2006, 09:55 AM)
Thanks for the reply Bud,

The amp would be driving 2 subs rated at 600W into 8ohms.  Do you find a difference in sound from the XS900 to the CE4000?  Do you also think it is better to run subs in Mono and Tops in Stereo? 
The music we play is mainly Heavy Rock covers.  (Judas Priest, AlterBridge, Thin Lizzy etc,)

Regards,
Paul.
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Hi Paul,
First off, yes I do think that it is better to run Subs Mono and top's Stereo.
The Sub Frequencies are so low and un-intelligable that to try and pick something out of them in stereo is useless.
The Mono Subs will also give a tighter unified low end.

Because you are driving two subs at 600 watts at 8 ohms you do not want to give them just 600 watts.
Read this:How much Power?

I run my Subs at 2x the rated RMS / Continous spec of the speakers at the appropriate Ohms.
In the case of your Subs and the 1.5 to 2x ratio of an Amps watts to speakers that would mean that you should use between 900 watts (1.5x) to 1200 watts (2x) to drive your Subs.

Another thought for you is, if you were to Parallel the two 600 watt Subs,
you would now have a 4 Ohm load instead of 8 ohms and a rating of 1200 watts.
I do not know if you know this but when you Parallel two speakers / Cabs,
you roughly divide the Ohms by the number of Speakers / cabs thus 8 divided by two is 4 ohms.
On the Watts per Speakers / Cabs, you add the watts, so 600 + 600 equals 1200
watts, this is because the two speakers / cabs in parallel will now share the watts input, so if you put in 1200 watts,
each speaker will still get 600 watts.

With that being said you would now have 1200 watts at 4 Ohms for your Subs.
With the Power ratio from above you now need between 1800 watts (1.5x)
to 2400 watts at 2x.
The XS900 puts out 2500 watts at 4 ohms Bridged and the CE4000 puts out 2800 watts at 4 ohms Bridged.
I would go with the XS900 and the extra 100 watts on Subs will never be noticed or cause a Problem.
I am doing this exact same thing right now and the XS900 is great on my Subs
it keeps up with my CE4000 Bridged on the other Sub cab.
I used this setup on a outdoor gig and you could only tell a difference between Subs when I stood at each sub and I had a bandmate turn down the XS to hear the CE and then turn down the CE to hear the XS.
The XS driven Sub was a bit more brighter than the CE4000 driven Sub, and I would expect that.
The CE4000 is a great Sub amp and from the specs listed above, the CE amp is a totaly different topology than the XS's.
When the System was running you could hear no difference out front and it was not bright enough to stop me from having two XS's or two CE's.
I also know a guy that Bridges two XS1200's into two JBL SRX 7128's one amp per cab and he loves his Subs at 3000 watts each!

The XTi2000 puts out 2000 watts Bridged at 4 ohms and has some limited
DSP as well, at 2000 watts it falls almost right in the middle of your 1800 to 2400
watts at 4ohms needed if you ran your subs Parallel.
I do not know anything about the XTi's yet because they are due out this month!
I'm keeping an eye out for them though and I'll be interested to hear the feedback on them.
I know someone who ordered 6 of them, so I'll post back with what he thinks of them.

Well, this should give you a bit more to think about.
I think Mono and Parallel is the way to go though.

Later,
   Bud
PS. What is the Make and Model of your Subs--- More Info please.

#5 prkm123

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 09:17 AM

Hi Bud,

Thanks for the reply,

I just want to clarify my set-up.

I have 2 x HK Audio PR115 sub.  Each sub is rated at 300W into 8ohms (Continuous Power).  I also have 2 x HK Audio PR112 tops again each top is rated at 300W into 8ohms (Continuous Power).  I have seen from previous posts I can power these using 2 power amps (1 for subs & 1 for tops) with 600W into 8ohms.  This allows 3 dB of headroom for peaks in the audio signal.

I like the idea of using the subs in Mono.  Makes alot of sense.

This is the set-up I could use.

With my subs in Parallel I could use;
1 x XS900 at 4ohms Bridged giving 2500W.

With my tops in Stereo I could use;
1 x XS900 at 8ohms Stereo giving 600W each side.

This sounds good but would the 2500W be too much if I am only sending 600W a side to the tops?

It would have to sound better than my current power amp set-up of;
1 x XLS602 running stereo into the subs giving 370W into 8ohms
1 x XLS602 running stereo into the tops giving 370W into 8ohms

What do you think?

Regards,
Paul.

#6 Bud Bolf

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE(prkm123 @ Apr 12 2006, 10:17 AM)
Hi Bud,

Thanks for the reply,

I just want to clarify my set-up.

I have 2 x HK Audio PR115 sub.  Each sub is rated at 300W into 8ohms (Continuous Power).  I also have 2 x HK Audio PR112 tops again each top is rated at 300W into 8ohms (Continuous Power).  I have seen from previous posts I can power these using 2 power amps (1 for subs & 1 for tops) with 600W into 8ohms.  This allows 3 dB of headroom for peaks in the audio signal.

I like the idea of using the subs in Mono.  Makes alot of sense.

This is the set-up I could use.

With my subs in Parallel I could use;
1 x XS900 at 4ohms Bridged giving 2500W.

With my tops in Stereo I could use;
1 x XS900 at 8ohms Stereo giving 600W each side.

This sounds good but would the 2500W be too much if I am only sending 600W a side to the tops?

It would have to sound better than my current power amp set-up of;
1 x XLS602 running stereo into the subs giving 370W into 8ohms
1 x XLS602 running stereo into the tops giving 370W into 8ohms

What do you think?

Regards,
Paul.
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#7 Bud Bolf

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 11:04 AM

Hi Paul,
You say,
QUOTE
I have 2 x HK Audio PR115 sub. Each sub is rated at 300W into 8ohms (Continuous Power).


If you have two Subs at 300 watts each at 8ohms and you connect one Sub
per channel on the XS900 or CE4000 each Sub will be getting 600 watts at 8ohms which is 2x the Power ratio of Power Amp to speaker specs.
It is better if you do not have to bridge anyway.
So this is the way to go for the PR115 Subs.

You also say,
QUOTE
I also have 2 x HK Audio PR112 tops again each top is rated at 300W into 8ohms (Continuous Power)


The reply for these is the same as above.
One Power Amp for the Subs and One Power Amp for the Tops.
Then run it all in Stereo, if you've got it flaunt it!
Mono or Stereo for the Subs is fine, the point that I was making before is that there is not an advantage to Stereo over Mono Subs.
If you want to run just one XLR input cable to the Sub amp rather than two
then just Parallel the inputs.

Two XS900's should fit the bill just fine.
Be aware though that if this is in a quite listening environment,
the two fans in the XS's run continuously and can be heard slightly in
quiet segments of a movie parse.

You did not mention how this System is to be used, i.e. Band, DJ, Home Stereo.
What you have in the way of a crossover or DSP for processing the
Inputs to the Amps.

The Filters on the CE4000 can be handy, though it depends on your exact setup.
Be a bit more clear on that if you can.
later,
  Bud

#8 prkm123

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 10:58 AM

Hi Bud,

Thanks for the expert advice,

I use the set-up for a Band playing Heavy Rock.  I think I will go with the 2 x XS900 power amps all in stereo, sounds the best way to go.

At the moment I borrow a drive rack to use as a crossover.  Trying to get the money together to buy my own..

Can I ask you 1 more question..

With the 2 subs(mono) in parallel getting 2500W from 1 XS900 amp in 4ohms
and running
2 subs (stereo) getting 600W from 1 XS900 amp in 8ohms,

Which would be louder? Or would both be the same?

Regards,
Paul.

#9 Bud Bolf

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 07:00 PM

Hi Paul,
QUOTE
Can I ask you 1 more question..

With the 2 subs(mono) in parallel getting 2500W from 1 XS900 amp in 4ohms
and running 2 subs (stereo) getting 600W from 1 XS900 amp in 8ohms,

Which would be louder? Or would both be the same?


Paul your missing the BIG picture, you cannot just throw whatever Amplifier power that you want at Speakers
to make them louder.
You said that the speakers are rated at 300 watts Continuous each.
That means that the most that you should throw at them is 2x the Continuous rating which is 600 watts.
If you paralleled these speakers together to 4 ohms then you would have 300 +300 or 600 watts Continuous and 2x that is 1200 watts, a Bridged XS900 on these same two speakers would be 2500 watts at 4 ohms.
That's Overpowering these speakers by 1300 watts!
Even if you went to Peak power which is 900 watts, that would be 1800 watts
and the 2500 watts Bridged XS900, would still be over by 700 watts.
Even with proper Limiting You need to be carefull at Peak or you will fry these speakers really fast.
What are your thoughts on your Subs and System now?
You powered them with 370 Watts at 8 ohms each, you need to double the power, for a 3 dB Increase that you can hear.
At 600 watts you almost do at a 270W increase but are 70watts shy of that!

Have you setup your DriveRack correctly per your Speakers, i.e. LPF, HPF, Parametrics, Crossover and Crossover Gain.
On your DriveRack are the Output levels the same (mine at +10) on the Lows and the High outputs?
A lot of times the High Outs are at +10 and the Low Outs are at -5 or 0,
adjust the Gain in the Low Crossover until they are the same.
Are your Limiters set correctly?
There is much to tweaking your System with the DriveRack.
You borrow your friends DriveRack, does your System have PreSet's saved that you can adjust just for your HK System?
Have you found the Speaker Perameters for your Speakers?
Are you Crossoing over your Low Pass Filter at 90 to 100Hz?
Your PR115S Sub had a 150Hz Crossover in it but that is way to high
Cross the Sub lower.
At 150Hz you get too much Vocals and other things in your Subs.
You can also setup your Subs as Aux Fed Subs if you have the DR260 but not the PA Version.
Which DriveRack are you using?

Another rule of thumb with speakers is, if the speakers you have are not getting the job done and yet they are powered correctly, then you need different or additional speakers for your Application.
If your Subs  properly powered is not enough, then you need to think about more than just Power Amps!

You really need to decide just what you want from a Sub!
Go check out some local Bands and see what they are using, find out which person in the Band is the Gear / PA person and chat it up with them.
You'll usually find that they always like to talk gear!
Some have turned me on to new places to buy gear at.
One band had a total Yorkville setup and he told me where he got his, I then followed up.

Your saving for a DriveRack and I know all about Budget concerns first hand,
I powered both my Sub cabs at first per channel from my CE4000 at 1200 watts each, when they needed 1600 to 3200W, can you say UnderPowered!
I had to save up (about a year) and Grow into them, it took awhile before I could hear them like I do now!

Go here:Pro Sound Web?

Check out the LAB Lounge and the LAB Subwoofer Project.
Be a fly on the wall if you want in the LAB Forum because that is where the real pro's that do Concert Sound hang out, they are not that welcoming to Newbies!
Also check out the Study Hall, you can learn tons of good Live Audio Information,
It's a place that you can go to school at.

So, what do you think?
What are you looking for?

Later,
    Bud

Is this what you have:
HK Premium System 3 - PR115 (PAIR) & PR115S (PAIR) - 1200 watts (PR115 x 2 + PR115S x 2)
About $3000.00 US Dollars.
Ever thought of the 18's or two Subs per side?

#10 prkm123

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 02:12 AM

Hi Bud,

I think I now know where I'm going wrong!!

I was thinking that if you have a speaker that is rated at 300W Continuous Power into 8ohms you can power this with 600W's into 8ohms.  This I know is right..

Where I was going wrong was that I was taking 2 speakers at 300W RMS and multiplying by 2 which gives 600 + 600 (1200W) for the power and then at 4ohms I was multiplying again by 2 which gave me 1200 x 2 (2400W).

I know now (Thanking you!!) that 2 x 300W speakers at 8ohms = 2 speakers in Parallel at 4ohms is still only 600W..which I can power with 1200W not 2400W...

I hope I'm right!!

Can you tell me your set-up?  What speakers you use and how the connect them up?

I thought I had to cross-over my speakers at 150Hz (Recomended by Manufacture) I could hear vocals coming through the subs and always thought this was a bit strange..

I'm still only getting used to the drive rack.  There is alot to learn with the unit..

Regards,
Paul.

#11 Bud Bolf

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 08:04 PM

Hi Paul,
Yep your math was definitely wrong, now you have it right.
You want to power each cab at 600 watts at 8ohms and if you parallel the two cabs together, then it is 1200 watts at 4 ohms.

I still say using a Power amp rated at 600 watts per channel at 8 ohms is the best way for you to go.
Per channel is the best way for the amp to work at it's most efficiency, if you do not have to Bridge an amp then don't!

I know that your Sub has a 150Hz Crossover built into it but that means that it will attenuate frequencys above 150Hz.
I cannot believe that you want your Sub to go that high.
Do you have the specs on these cabs?
I could not really find it on-line.
What I cross my Subs at, may not be where yours cross at.

But I'll tell you:
  
For the Lows / Subs:
        High Pass Filter: HPF
        50 Hz  (I have played with 40Hz, but have not heard a great improvement, so I left it at 50Hz.)
       LR -24dB Slope
       Gain 4.00dB (this usually changes the Crossover point, but I have not heard or read  if the DRPA Compensates for this or not.)
     Low Pass Filter: LPF
    90 Hz
   LR -24dB Slope

For my top cabs:
         112 Hz LR -12dB
          Gain -2.5dB

I tried 100Hz LR -24dB but just like the settings above better.
The Slope's will tell you your Crossover Point.
You can try the Butterworth Filters and see what you like.

As far as my Speakers and Setup goes:
I have two Sub cabs and each one has two, 15" Eminence Omega Pro's that are rated at 800 watts RMS each,
so each cab is rated at 1600 watts at 4 ohms.
This is because the two 15's are wired Parallel in the cab.
Their power Amp needs fall between, 2400 watts (1.5x) to 3200 watts (2x) at 4 ohms.
I am using a Bridged CE4000 at 2800 watts at 4 ohms on one cab and the XS900 Bridged at 2500 watts at 4 ohms on the other cab.

I will shortly put the XS900 back on Monitor duty, which is what I bought it for
and put a new CE4000 or XTi 4000 on that Sub.
I will then either have two Subs at 2800 watts each or one at 2800 and the other at 3200 watts because the XTi 4000 is rated at 3200 watts Bridged at 4 ohms.

I built these cabs and used WinISD as well as the Eminence speaker Design Software to Port and Tune them, it was a project that I started and did not fully comprehend what lied ahead, it took quite awhile and I got lot's of help from Speaker Cab Designers at PSW to complete!
They do sound awesome but next time I will buy!
I almost built the LAB Subs but that's another story.

I have a Mackie 24/4 VLZ Pro Mixer to a DriveRackPA and on to my Crown amps.
I am in a Power Trio, R&R Band!
I mic the Drums and really everything, I love a great Drum sound and though still working on the Kit via Gates, Verbs, PEQ's they do sound pretty good.
Plus the Drummer likes the sound of his Kit, so that's something!

As for other Subs:
I looked at the Yorkville LS608 and LS800 (single 18's) as well as the LS1004 (dual 18's) I also like the new JBL SRX 728's and the Peavey QW218's awesome Subs.
The single 18 JBL MP418S subs do not suck either.

In large R&R Clubs here in the states, I take in Both Subs and we can definitely
Thump and Rock the House.
In smaller clubs, I can take in one Sub cab and still may need to pull it back a bit.
Some clubs / Bars have bands with Speakers on a stick mainly for Vocals and then just turn up the Backline Instruments to fill.
I like a good Kick and drum sound as I said and a solid Low end as well as Mids and Highs.

You need to decide what you want and need, what are the places like, that you play?
What are the Bands there using?
You need to make sure that your System is tweaked to it's finest, before you decide that it is a bad mix of Speakers and Amps.

What are you main complaints with your System now?
What is YOUR setup?

Later,
   Bud

#12 prkm123

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 08:31 AM

Hi Bud,

My main concern at the moment is that my XLS602 that I use on my Tops are clipping too often.  I do need to get the XS900.

Thanks for all your advise, it has been great.  I'll let you know when I get the pair of XS900's and tell you what I think.  In the mean time I need to understand alot more about the DriveRack (I might go back to using a seperate EQ and Crossover..)

Best Regards,