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Daisy Chain XLS602's?


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#1 prkm123

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 03:28 PM

Hi,
This is my first time to post so go easy on me..
I have 2 XLS602's (The 3u high ones). They are rated at 370W into 8ohms.  If I daisy chain both amps will this give me 740W into 8ohms?  If yes, how do I connent them? Do I run the inputs into the first amp - then daisy chain into the second amp - and use the outputs from the second amp?

Mant thanks,
Paul.

#2 Artie

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 08:17 PM

Hi Paul. You can't really do what you're asking. That is, you can't "daisy-chain" amplifiers. They just don't work that way. The output of an amp is determined by the physical attributes of the output transistors and the power supply. Also, if you check the specs, you'll see that an XLS 602 only requires 1.25 volts to drive it to full power. Any more than that and you just "clip" the amp.

What you could do is, parallel the input of the amps and run to two speaker systems. But there's no way to drive one speaker with two amps. (That I know of.)   wink.gif

#3 Bud Bolf

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 09:56 PM

Hi Paul,
As Artie said you cannot plug the output of one amp into the Input of another!
The only way to Daisy Chain amps together is from the Inputs through a Y cord or even some amps as in the XS amps have an Input and Output/through XLR connectors.
  
You can Bridge your XLS 602 amp if you need more power.

XLS 602:
380W @ 8ohms / 600W @ 4ohms and  1200W @ 8ohms Bridged.
There is no spec for a 4ohm Bridged scenario.

What exactly are you trying to power ie. Speaker cabs, Make and Model?
  
Good Luck,
        Bud

#4 prkm123

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 01:57 AM

QUOTE(Artie @ Mar 27 2006, 02:17 AM)
Hi Paul. You can't really do what you're asking. That is, you can't "daisy-chain" amplifiers. They just don't work that way. The output of an amp is determined by the physical attributes of the output transistors and the power supply. Also, if you check the specs, you'll see that an XLS 602 only requires 1.25 volts to drive it to full power. Any more than that and you just "clip" the amp.

What you could do is, parallel the input of the amps and run to two speaker systems. But there's no way to drive one speaker with two amps. (That I know of.)   wink.gif
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Hi Guy's,

Thanks for the reply's.  I'll give you my set-up.

I am running my 2 XLS602's in stereo which gives me 370W into 8ohms dual.  I'm using 2 x 15 HK Audio Bins (300W RMS - 600W Program each - Each bin is 8ohms) & 2 x 12 HK Audio Tops (300W RMS - 600W Program each - Each top is 8ohms).  After doing some research on the this forum and the net it looks like I am not using enough power for the speakers?

Maybe running 2 x CE4000 amps (600W into 8ohms dual) would be a better choice?

Many thanks for your advice.
Paul.

#5 Bud Bolf

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 07:13 PM

Howdy,
You have a number of options.
Your Power amp to speakers ratio should be 1.5 to 2x the continous or RMS speaker / cab specs.

Since both your Cabs are rated at 300 watts RMS that means that you should power your cabs
with between 450 (1.5x) to 600 watts (2x) @ 8ohms.

There are a number of Crown amps that fit that bill.

1) XLS 802:  500W @ 8 ohms

2) CTs 1200: 600 @ 8 ohms / Fixed Install

3) XS:  Noisy Fans run continous!
          XS700: 450 watts @ 8 ohms
          XS900: 600 watts @ 8 ohms

4) XTi:
         XTi 4000:  650W @ 8 ohms
         XTi 2000:  475W @ 8 ohms

5) CE4000 : 600 watts @ 8 ohms

6) K2 : 500 watts @ 8 ohms / no fans very quiet!

The new XTi amps have DSP and will more than likely cause the CE Series of amps to be discontinued.
Due to this, there are some good deals to be had for the CE Series of amps,
especially the CE4000's.
I am not a fan of Butterworth Filters that the XTi's and K2 use, but what the hey.

Good Luck,
     Bud

#6 prkm123

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 02:08 AM

QUOTE(Bud Bolf @ Mar 28 2006, 01:13 AM)
Howdy,
You have a number of options.
Your Power amp to speakers ratio should be 1.5 to 2x the continous or RMS speaker / cab specs.

Since both your Cabs are rated at 300 watts RMS that means that you should power your cabs
with between 450 (1.5x) to 600 watts (2x) @ 8ohms.

There are a number of Crown amps that fit that bill.

1) XLS 802:  500W @ 8 ohms

2) CTs 1200: 600 @ 8 ohms / Fixed Install

3) XS:  Noisy Fans run continous!
          XS700: 450 watts @ 8 ohms
          XS900: 600 watts @ 8 ohms

4) XTi:
         XTi 4000:  650W @ 8 ohms
         XTi 2000:  475W @ 8 ohms

5) CE4000 : 600 watts @ 8 ohms

6) K2 : 500 watts @ 8 ohms / no fans very quiet!

The new XTi amps have DSP and will more than likely cause the CE Series of amps to be discontinued.
Due to this, there are some good deals to be had for the CE Series of amps,
especially the CE4000's.
I am not a fan of Butterworth Filters that the XTi's and K2 use, but what the hey.

Good Luck,
     Bud
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Bud,

Thanks very much for your advice,  you have given me plenty of options.  I have just a few more questions you might be able to help me with..

If I use my 2 bins in Parallel this would give me a 4ohm load..Am I correct?

The website gives a figure of 1200W into 8ohms Bridged..?What would the power be at 4ohms Bridged..?

And lastly, on the back of my XLS602's there are 2 Male XLR Signal Links.. The manual said they are used for "daisy-chaining to other amplifiers".. Can you explain how and why these would be used..

Again many thanks for your help.
Paul.

#7 Bud Bolf

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 08:11 PM

Hi Paul,
You asked:
QUOTE
If I use my 2 bins in Parallel this would give me a 4ohm load..Am I correct?


Yes you can parallel the two, 2 x 15 HK Audio Bins (300W RMS - 600W Program each - Each bin is 8ohms) they will now be a 4 ohm load to the amp.
The Power needed doubles as the Ohms load decreases.
Since both cabs would now share the Power you would need between 900 watts (1.5x) to 1200 watts (2x) at 4 ohms.
The only difference is that you would no longer be running in Stereo.

You could also do the same thing for the two 2 x 12 HK Audio Tops (300W RMS - 600W Program each - Each top is 8ohms)
These would also mirror the above at 4 ohms and need between 900 to 1200 watts per pair of cabs.

If stereo is not needed you could in essence use a Power amp such as the
CE4000 or the XTi 4000 that will power 1200 watts per channel at  4 ohms.
The two 2 x 15 HK Audio Bins could be paralleled and connected to Channel 1
and the two 2 x 12 HK Audio Tops could be Paralleled and ran off of Channel 2 or visa-versa.

I would do this on a per channel basis rather than 2 lesser amps Bridged.

Purchase a CE4000 or a XS1200 and a DriveRack for your DSP and your good to go!
You could also purchase the XTi4000 with on board DSP.
Though I'm not sure that the DSP in the XTi4000 will do all that you need,
to process the power from Mixer to Amp to Speakers.
The XTi's are new and just coming out so I can not attest to their performance.
Maybe David from Crown will chime in.  

Obviously if you do not need the Stereo setup the above is the way to go.

You ask:
QUOTE
The website gives a figure of 1200W into 8ohms Bridged..?What would the power be at 4ohms Bridged..?


The XLS Series of Power Amps will unfortunetly not perform in 4 ohms Bridged mode. Only at 8 ohms.
Therefore a XLS Power Amp will not work in the above scenario.
Can you say Ebay or maybe the XLS 602 for Monitors.

Lastly you asked:
QUOTE
And lastly, on the back of my XLS602's there are 2 Male XLR Signal Links.. The manual said they are used for "daisy-chaining to other amplifiers".. Can you explain how and why these would be used..


I could not find a referance to this feature on the XLS Power Amps.
However on my XS900 there are two XLR connectors per Input.
One is for the actual Input to the Amp channel and the second is for a Out or through as they call it.
In my Scenario I plug a Input XLR cable from my DriveRack into Channel 1 on the XS900
then I run a very short XLR cable from the second out / through XLR on
Channel 1 of the XS900 and go to Channel 1 on my CE4000.
This way I am Daisy chaining the two amps.
Otherwise I would need to run 2 XLR cables from my DriveRack to each Amp.
Get it? That's daisy chaining amps.
If there were only one Input per channel as on the XLS's then you could use a Y XLR cable and do the same thing.

I hope this helps you out.

Good Luck,
  Bud

#8 prkm123

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 02:25 AM

In my Scenario I plug a Input XLR cable from my DriveRack into Channel 1 on the XS900
then I run a very short XLR cable from the second out / through XLR on
Channel 1 of the XS900 and go to Channel 1 on my CE4000.
This way I am Daisy chaining the two amps.
Otherwise I would need to run 2 XLR cables from my DriveRack to each Amp.
Get it? That's daisy chaining amps.
If there were only one Input per channel as on the XLS's then you could use a Y XLR cable and do the same thing.

I hope this helps you out.

Good Luck,
  Bud
View Post
[/quote]


Hi Bud,

You are a wealth of Knowledge!!! Thank you..

The link below is reference to the 2 extra XLR connections on my XLS602 (Page10)

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/133465old.pdf

Could you explain your Scenario a bit more?  What way do you run to your speakers?  It sounds like you run Stereo out of your XS900 and also Stereo out of your CE4000?.  But, you say you run the signal from your Drive rack into the XS900 and out from that into the CE4000?  Where does the signal get split for the different power amps and speakers?

If you send the signal from your Drive rack into the XS900 and then into the CE4000, the signal going into your XS900 is then sent into the CE4000. - Have I got this wrong?

Regards,
Paul.

#9 Bud Bolf

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 06:56 PM

Hi Paul,
  See, you are already getting it.
Yes my XS900 and CE4000 are getting the same signal from my DriveRack,
this is because both Amps are running bridged for my Subs.
I am hoping for a new CE4000 soon but until that, the scenario for my Subs are that a Bridged CE4000 runs one of my Sub cabs at 2800 watts at 4 ohms and the XS900 is powering my other Sub cab at 2500 watts at 4 ohms.
The difference of 300 watts is really negligible.
You would need to double the power to really notice a difference.

Because the XS900 has the extra XLR for daisy chaining to another Amp I can
then set up my DriveRack for a 2 x 3 configuration.
Two inputs into the DriveRack from my Mackie 24/4 VLZ Pro mixer, then
out of my DriveRack I run the two High outputs into my CE2000 for Stereo tops.
From the Low outputs on the DriveRack I just use one of the outputs to the XS900,
this saves me running a 4th XLR cord from the DriveRack to the CE4000.
Because the Frequencies are so low in Subs you will never hear Stereo Separation.
I run Stereo Tops and Mono Subs.
The XS900 was originally bought to run my Monitors and will eventually end up
there.
I am borrowing a Friends Power amp for Monitors now.

Also on some smaller gigs I can get away with only using one Sub Cabinet,
placed on it's side and center stage to avoid Power Alley.
When I do this I use the XS900 for Monitors and I just plug the Low out XLR cord that usually plugs into the XS900 from the DriveRack into the CE4000.

I have 2 dual 15 Sub cabs rated at 1600 watts at 4 ohms, so they need between 2400 watts (1.5x) to 3200 watts (2x) to drive them.
The 2800 watts from the CE4000 into just one cab can thump the heck out of a
small club and even at that, in some really small clubs, I need to turn the System down a bit.
The Balls to the Walls R&R Clubs get both cabs!
My amp rack is easily configurable for the XS900 to be used for Monitors or Subs.

You said:
QUOTE
The link below is reference to the 2 extra XLR connections on my XLS602 (Page10)


Wow I was looking at the Manual for the newer 2 space Version of the XLS 602.
Yours is the original 3 space XLS 602 Power Amp.
Yours does have the same jacks as the XS series of amps, that is exactly what I am talking about.
If you were running two XLS 602's in Stereo you could run two XLR cables from your Drive Rack into one of the XLS 602's.
Then use two very short XLR cables to interconnect or Daisy chain Channel 1 of one amp to Channel 1 of the second amp and the same for Channel 2.
In my case since the Amps are Bridged, I just use Channel 1 on both amps.

I hate when Crown updates a Power Amp Series and then, makes the Updated Amp, have less features than the original.
That's pretty Ballsy!  As if they would not have had room for two XLR Jacks!
They were able to put them into the XS Series of amps and they are 2 rack space amps.

Anyway, that's it for now, any further questions just let me know.
Take Care,
      Bud

#10 prkm123

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 08:51 AM

Hi Bud,

Again thanks so much for your advice... You have explained things very clearly..

I know who to talk to when I need more info!!!

Best Regards,

Paul.