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Crown CE 2000


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#1 Geoff E

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 05:57 PM

It is thermaling i.e the fan is running all the time and on loud transients the amp is reseting itself. I am running it stereo 8 ohms a side with the proper speakers and not even very hard maybe 1/4-1/3. I checked all the cords (speakons) for shorts and it is all good. The amp is about 6 years old and has never had any service or stupid abuse.

So I have it in at a techs and should have an estimate tomorrow. Would any of you techy types have an idea what is going on with my amp? I'd just like to understand it a bit as to not get burned if it is a big estimate.

#2 Geoff E

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 05:58 PM

Ok, the tech had it on the bench and low and behold the amp checked out fine.  So the cords are fine so It has to be one of my speakers that has an internal fault.  I'm going to bring them in tomorrow how does the tech check speakers for a short that is intermittant?  Is there any damage that could've happened to my amp as well?

#3 Bud Bolf

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 06:28 PM

Hi,
Do you know that you can hook up the Amp with the Inputs and even
turn it up as you would, just don't hook up any Speakers.
You can also turn it up and on with nothing (In's or Out's) connected.
That's the beauty of Solid State, just don't do that with a Tube Amp!
Let the Amp run for hours with just an active Input and see if it trips.
If it does not trip, then hook up just one cab and try again,
still OK? Then hook up the other cab, if it trips with one or the other Cab
then check the cab that made it trip.
You can check the resistance of the Voice Coils with a Meter,
as well as visually to see if it looks burned.
With Peavey Speakers where the basket is removable, it's much
easier to do a Visual  check and also smell of the Voice Coils!

If the Amp trips with no Speakers connected, then tell your tech.
Make sure that the Input source and cords are ok too.
Good Luck,
    Bud
PS. Let us know what is found to be the culprit.

#4 Geoff E

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 09:02 PM

QUOTE(Bud Bolf @ Oct 3 2005, 06:28 PM)
PS. Let us know what is found to be the culprit.
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Well last night at my open jam.  There was only one side of the amp was acting up.  It would throw the clip and fault light at the same time.  We pulled out almost all of the EQ and put a -6db pad on that side it was a lot better.  Could my outboard EQ be crapping out? Another thing I found that though I had set up my trims on the board to unity, when we had really loud i.e. chick singers who sang in the higher registry would cause it to peak out again.  Would this be an indication that I may need a compressor/limiter?

As well even at idle with no signal there seemed to be a constant noise/hiss not unlike a waterfall from a distance.  This has been there forever but my bassist  who has oodles of experience as a sound tech says the Crown should be stone cold silent.  Is this an indication of dirty power?  My Furman PL+ was saying a steady 117-122 volts all night.

#5 Geoff E

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 09:04 PM

QUOTE(Geoff E @ Sep 30 2005, 05:58 PM)
Ok, the tech had it on the bench and low and behold the amp checked out fine.  So the cords are fine so It has to be one of my speakers that has an internal fault.
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Yeah the speakers all checked out  A-OK as well...

#6 Bud Bolf

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 02:33 AM

Hi again,
  In regard to your Hissing like a waterfall, I would unplug your Amp's Inputs
and see if it is still there.
Yes it should be quiet, but when you have it up and running with front detent controls up, the Amps job is to Amplify Sound.
If there is a dirty, hissing, input being fed into your Amp, it will amplify that too!
You know the saying GIGO "Garbage in, Garbage out."
If you unplug an Input and it goes away, then work your way backwards
and see which piece of equipment is causing it, i.e. unplug your input to your Crossover and if quiet, the Input to your next, and so on. If it gets back to your Mixer, check it's Inputs. Effects units can sound like a waterfall too.
I've even heard about DriveRacks wooshing, though mine does not.

As far as your Clipping, have you set your "Gain Structure" correct?
You should never see a Clip light come on.

With Amps on, but speakers not connected, I put in a CD and set the CD channel's Gain or Pad so it does not clip at unity (Solo) then set your Main fader just to Red Clip, then your DSP to Clip, and then turn up your Amp until you see it just Clip, then pull your Mixer fader down, so your just peaking in the yellow LED's, you should see your DSP/ Crossover and Amp clip light go out. I then usually back off on my Amp's detent controls a click or 2 back.
Now if your Channel strips and overall Mixer does not exceed just peaking in the yellow's, then you will never Clip. This is a must no matter how excited you get as the night goes on and you want to push that Main fader up a Bit! Or start off
lower so you can creep up a bit as the crowd get's excited!

I have a Keyboardist that has his own volume control on his keys, and I have actually had to tape it, so he does not get excited and turn it up, because he can and will clip his channel, the Mixer all the way to the Amp.
So, be Careful for that.
Your vocalist should not be clipping at all, that's what the Channel Pad is for.
If your doing Open Mic nights, then a Compressor/Limiter on the Vocal Channel Insert would be a good Idea, it's tough constantly setting the Trim for each different Singer. Pad the channel a bit more and rely on the channel fader more,
keep an eye on it with the different singers.
If your Amp is more in the 2x the RMS of the Speakers rating then you should be able to pull the Amps detent knobs back just a bit more and not lose the FOH.
No offense meant, but maybe your problems are due more on Technique than Equipment.
   Good Luck,
     Bud
PS. You say one side is worse than the other, are all your Channels panned to Center? Does your L&R Main LED's show one peaking higher than the other?
Maybe your Mixer is the culprit.
Bottom line, when your amp does not Clip it works fine? If so, you have to find what is overloading that side. Also next time, at a Break, flip the Inputs on the Amp and see if the other side of the Amp now clips, even if it's inputs are Y'd,
maybe a bad cord.

#7 Geoff E

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE(Bud Bolf @ Oct 4 2005, 02:33 AM)
No offense meant, but maybe your problems are due more on Technique than Equipment.
   Good Luck,
     Bud
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No no offense taken I need to hear this stuff.  Funny part is I've done dozens of gigs with this set up and no problems until lately.

The setup is like this. CE 2000 Running Stereo Mode.  One side Monitors, one side FOTH.  Using a Mackie 1604 VLZ mono out and send #2 out into a Behringer Twin 16 band EQ with a crossover set to a basic munsen curve.  The Crossover sends signal to a Yorkville NX200 self powered sub.  The monitors are Yorkville NX350 rated @ 700 @  4 ohms for the pair and the FOTH are Yorkville Elite E10 rated @ 400 for the pair @ 4 ohms.  

Is there anything wrong with the Elites being a bit under rated for the power of the CE? Or really would the speakers just get fried?  

I appreciate all of your input and will go over the manual for the Mackie once again.  I follow the level setting procedure for the gain trims being set to unity by the book.  If just one strip clips would/could it overload the input of the amp?  Or is it the overall level of the main fader that dictates this?  What I don't understand if one strip was causing the FOTH side to clip why wouldn't the monitor side honk out either?  As isn't it getting the same clipped signal from the gain knob?  blink.gif

#8 Bud Bolf

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 09:53 AM

Howdy,
  OK first things first, You say that your Sub is the NX200 and your FOH top cab is the Elite E10, and the Monitors are the NX350.
Why would you use the E10 which is a 10" 200watt Cab as your FOH instead of the NX350 which is a 12" cab rated at 350watts? I would think that a matched Pair of the NX200 and NX350 would be a better choice for your FOH and then
use the Elite E10 as Monitors.
Please Clarify this and the reasoning for it, just wondering.

Are your FOH Top cabs (E10) being Crossed over with the Crossover as well, or is the Crossover just for the Subs? Because even with Powered Subs you should
still be using the Crossover for the Sub and the Top Cabs, other wise your Top cabs will extend into the Sub Freq's and cause cancellation's among other things.

Your Elites are not under powered by the CE. They are rated at 200 watts Program at 8ohms each. By connecting them both to 1 Channel it now makes them 400watts at 4ohms, the CE2000 puts out 660 watts per Channel at 4ohms.
With the 1.5 to 2x Power rule, that would be 600 to 800 watts per cab and you are at 660, just over 1.5x.
The NX350's though are under powered at 700 watts.
But still they will not blow up, but that is why your Gain Structure would be much more Critical.

Think of the 1.5x to 2x the Power Amp size over the Speakers RMS rating as
a buffer if you will, i.e. your car can go 120 miles an hour but you usually drive around at 60, so you have a 2X rule of twice the Power that you need and the Motor will run cool and not Stressed, yet if you needed to get up to 90 or even 120 for a Peak you will still not have a problem.
However if you have a car that can only go 60 and your constantly running at 60
then when you try to go 90 you'll blow (Clip) something. Does this mean that you can't drive the Car rated at 60, NO but it surely means that you cannot go over 60
or something bad and Costly will occur! So, don't let someone gunning their engine drag you into a race that you can't compete in!
In other words,
when the Music gets really going and the people are dancing around and you do not have that extra headroom, don't get excited and move the main fader up to push the System for a little more, you don't have it (unless you started out on the Low side) and you'll be in a bad situation!
Now when the Power Amp is rated at 2X what is needed (except for maybe a Peak) and it's able to be dialed back and still give you the Power / Voltage that you need, now if the Mixer Clips (depending how hard it clips) you will not see it at the Amp.  Your amp does not need to be set on the edge of Clipping to give you what you need nor does your Mixer, everything can be pulled back a bit, your not on the edge of a Cliff. Do you understand?
That's why if you can afford it and maybe even if you can't, one should step up to a Larger Amp for the Headroom. Don't buy just what will barely get you by, cause it may cost you in the Long run.
You know the Guy with the Oil can that says, "Pay me now or pay me later."

So to answer your question, if one channel Clips can it go to your amp, absolutely,
depending on how close to the edge your Gain Structure is set up, if your Mains are running just under the Clip, then a clipped channel can be enough to push it over the top.
That is why you make sure to set your Channel gains so you can not Clip them, as well as your mains. When clipping on a channel stops, go a lillte bit heavier on the Pad for the Headroom. That way if someone screams into a mic, your strip is OK.
Still don't go overboard, and rob your System because your scared of it Clipping,
if your in a Band you will find ALL the safe limits, yet still be active enough.
Rarely do I have to adjust my Pads, though I do still check each channel at each soundcheck, and I'm usually right there, or a minor tweak away.
We have been playing together for years and I know my bandmates and the System. If you can't get loud enough without Clipping then your under powered and need some Equipment changes.

On a side note, I know that my DriveRack has really been a Godsend in setting up and using my System, not to mention that I can save and Name each Venue that we play. When I return, I pick that preset and I'm there, with all the hard work saved from our previous gig there. I have many more Speaker (Tunings) that I can dial in including Crossover, PEQ's and GEQ with RTA.
You can go to the Yorkville Site and pull up the Speaker Tunings / Adjustments for your particular cabs. Theres a lot more that you can do. But that will come with time.

Right now you just want to solve this problem your having.
I just want to make sure that you still have it even if you never see the Clip Lights.
If I was you I would swap which Channel gets which on the CE2000,
see if there is a pattern. Is it always the Mains or Monitors, or always one Channel, if it's Mains or Monitors then you know where your work lies.
If it is always the Same Amp Channel no matter Mains or Monitors, I would take it back or get a second opinion.
  Let me know,
        Bud
PS. Oh almost forgot, if you clip a Channel it does not have to clip your Monitors Amp, it again depends on the Gain Structure that you have set up to your monitors. My XS900 is for my Monitors and it gives me 2X what I need, so it's not even breathing hard, things would really have to get crazy for my Monitors to Clip.
I worry more about feedback rather than Clipping.
My front Gain controls are at about 1/2 way, yet if needed I could go up to just under 3/4 for my Monitors. I got the 900 so I would not have to be at the Power edge. One less thing to worry about.

#9 Geoff E

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 08:19 PM

Yeah I use the NX-350 on the monitors only for the reason that we sometimes use a electronic drum kit and the 12" whumps a bit more than the E10. I reasoned using the E10s on the FOTH was that the crossover in the behringer pulls the low end away from them and the 2" titanium horn in the E10 should have a better high end throw. (in speculation)  wink.gif

For bigger gigs we use a pair of the NX-200 with a pair of NX-20s (older versions of the NX-350) Then we can run the monitor side of the  CE-2000 down to 2 ohms and get full power out of it.  

What I'm not understanding is the reasoning that the NX-350 X 2 = 700 watts @ 4 ohms
QUOTE
Your Elites are not under powered by the CE. They are rated at 200 watts Program at 8ohms each. By connecting them both to 1 Channel it now makes them 400watts at 4ohms, the CE2000 puts out 660 watts per Channel at 4ohms.
With the 1.5 to 2x Power rule, that would be 600 to 800 watts per cab and you are at 660, just over 1.5x.
The NX350's though are under powered at 700 watts.
But still they will not blow up, but that is why your Gain Structure would be much more Critical.


If the speakers have more headroom 750 vs 660 wouldn't the amp just run out of juice or distort before the speakers popped?  VS the Elites @ 400 @ 4 ohms. Could/would the CE-2000 pumping it out just destroy the E10s?

My band partner has a Driverack (model #??? all sorts of bells and whistles though) and a matching CE-2000 as well but he uses it for rehearsal with his other band.  The speaker presets are great just from what he tells me there is no Yorkville Speaker presets so he uses JBL ones to get close.  Which drive rack model do you have?  

Thanks for the help biggrin.gif

#10 Bud Bolf

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 07:36 PM

Hi,
  I was thinking that the reason that you put the NX's for monitors was because of a Drum Monitor / Fill and wanted to use the 12" for that. As far as a 2" horn on the E10's when I go to the Yorkville site, it specifies a 1" Horn with a
dispersion of 100 x 25. Are yours different?
The NX350 also has a 1" horn but a dispersion of 80 x 50

You have a small system what with all 10's on your FOH.
A 10" Sub at 200 watts, how is that working out? What kind of music do you play?
Do you feel that you are pushing the System alot

QUOTE
"What I'm not understanding is the reasoning that the NX-350 X 2 = 700 watts @ 4 ohms?"


Because two 350watt 8 ohm cabs in Parallel on 1 Channel equals 700watts @ 4ohms

QUOTE
"If the speakers have more headroom 750 vs 660 wouldn't the amp just run out of juice or distort before the speakers popped?


You have to remember that you are putting 2 cabs on 1 channel, the two NX350's
at 350watts each at 8ohms when both are put on one channel they become 700watts at 4ohms. The CE2000 will put out 660watts per channel at 4ohms, so this is 40watts less than the nominal 700watts. You can drive these Speakers to potential, but you have no headroom at the Amp and with peaks you can easily send the amp into clipping, then you can fry your Speakers.


QUOTE
VS the Elites @ 400 @ 4 ohms. Could/would the CE-2000 pumping it out just destroy the E10s?"


No, because the Amp's voltage is dissipated over both speakers. With the Power to speakers rule of 1.5x to 2x the RMS rating, which I also believe is the Program rating means then that the E10's (when 2 cabs paralleled) should be powered with between 600 watts (1.5x) and 800 watts (2x) so you are not overpowering
these cabs. Only you Clipping the Amp or letting extreme frequencies outside
the speakers specs will damage the E10's.  

QUOTE
My band partner has a Driverack (model #??? all sorts of bells and whistles though) and a matching CE-2000 as well but he uses it for rehearsal with his other band. The speaker presets are great just from what he tells me there is no Yorkville Speaker presets so he uses JBL ones to get close. Which drive rack model do you have?


I have a DriveRackPA, because the DriveRack260 was not out yet when I got the PA version. If I was buying one now, then I would spend the extra cash and get the 260!
I believe that the Yorkville Site has the Speaker cab specs and tunings and your friend can download the info and then program it in under "Custom" for Speaker selection. Why get close with a JBL cab when you can get Exact for the Yorkies.

Glad to help,
       Bud

#11 Geoff E

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 12:22 PM

Yeah right now we run it in a room sized for a 150, that's with the 2  E10 with the NX 200 for the FOTH.  The NX 200 is a wonderful piece easy to cart around throws a lot of whumpaa. When they get paired up there is not a small room that just boogies with them.  I sized the system like that as for all intents and purposes any place bigger we play has a house system.

We found a few more things that may be over loading my Crown.  Is that my mono send on the mixer was set +6db over unity, plus my l.e.d output meter was disabled LOL!  

My bassist tech friend and I where going over the manuals of the CE 2000 and my board and EQ last night.  We found that the EQ accepts 21db and that the Mackie can send 28db.  So what we understand is that the Crown can handle approx 1.5v-3v of signal, what we need to figure out what db gain equates to voltage.  That is where we figure the problem rises.  

As for the hiss and noise we are first going to negate the EQ from the equation as the more we mess with it, the more the EQ looks like to be the culprit.  We have an open mic tomorrow so we are going to show up a bit early and do the troubleshoot as you suggested.

#12 Geoff E

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 12:24 PM

I think Don does have a 260 drive rack BTW.

#13 Geoff E

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE(Geoff E @ Oct 8 2005, 12:22 PM)
Yeah right now we run it in a room sized for a 150, that's with the 2  E10 with the NX 200 for the FOTH.  The NX 200 is a wonderful piece easy to cart around throws a lot of whumpaa. When they get paired up there is not a small room that just boogies with them.  I sized the system like that as for all intents and purposes any place bigger we play has a house system.

We found a few more things that may be over loading my Crown.  Is that my mono send on the mixer was set +6db over unity, plus my l.e.d output meter was disabled LOL! 

My bassist tech friend and I where going over the manuals of the CE 2000 and my board and EQ last night.  We found that the EQ accepts 21db and that the Mackie can send 28db.  So what we understand is that the Crown can handle approx 1.5v-3v of signal, what we need to figure out what db gain equates to voltage.  That is where we figure the problem rises. 

As for the hiss and noise we are first going to negate the EQ from the equation as the more we mess with it, the more the EQ looks like to be the culprit.  We have an open mic tomorrow so we are going to show up a bit early and do the troubleshoot as you suggested.
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All of this was contributing, it all seemed to be that the input of the amp was getting hit to hard.  We backed off the gain on the EQ by 6 db and 6 db on the mono mix send.... voila ... no clips lights or shutdowns.  wacko.gif Imagine that!!

Still getting a loud hum though, but just to the active sub.

#14 Bud Bolf

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 06:47 PM

Hi,
You mentioned the Input Sensitivity, you should most likely have the CE2000 on the 1.4 volt input setting. I have a Mackie SR24/4 VLZ Pro going to a Driverack and the DriveRack is set at +4 dBu, so I set my CE2000 to 1.4v.
You will actually see that in most Pro Audio your running at the +4dBu rather than
the -10dBu and Crown also recommends the 1.4 volt setting when running at +4dBu.
It's in the Manual under "Setup."
What are you using for a crossover?

The Mackies can put out a pretty hot signal. But it ALL just comes back to the "Gain Setup" of the System from Mixer through the Crossover or DSP
and or any other Outboard gear and then on to the Amps. You get that right for your System and your pretty much set.

Your only variables then are going to come from changes made at each individual Mixer channel.
Do not forget that changes made to your channel's EQ (Boost a Freq, pull back a Freq) and or boosting your Effects gain, will change the overall gain of the Channel itself and it's ability to peak or clip.
So set it and forget it, but if you do go back to a
Channel during performance and change the EQ,Effects, Fader you need to recheck your Channels Pad.
You need to set your Channels  Pad / Gain after your tweaking is done.
Glad to read that things are moving in a more positive direction for you.
  Keep it up,
       Bud