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Rig setup - expansion - need advice

xls602 yamaha s215v

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#1 CaptainBetty

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 11:41 AM

Hi everyone... I'm new to these forums and a bit green when it comes to all things PA.

I co-manage a band (3 piece hard rock cover band) and we try our best to do our own production (my partner and i run production).

Our current rig looks like this

Driverack PA+ (xover at 100hz)
Crown XLS602 x 2 Bridged
Yamaha S215V x2

QSC KW181 x4

This setup works pretty well for the small to mid size venues the band plays in. We'd like to go a bit bigger so we can handle some of the outdoor shows/bigger venues.

We're basically thinking of doubling the setup - mainly for economical reasons as the 602's can be found for about $200/ea and the Yamaha speakers are also fairly inexpensive. The KW181's are not cheap ;)

I have some reservations as I'm not sure having four 602s will be enough or not as efficient.

Ideas. Suggestions?

#2 dakos

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

Ahoy there captain,
There are two aspects you want to achieve when going outdoors, how much area you need coverage for and for how many people, and how much SPL you want at which distance from the speakers. Do you need more coverage? More SPL?
Avi

#3 CaptainBetty

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 01:28 PM

Thanks for the response dakos!

Good questions and I'm not exactly sure how to answer. I'm guessing a little of both. Outdoors we're talking county fair tents, street festivals. Maybe max 500 people and about 20+ feet from the stage. It could really vary - but we're not talking stadiums here. We typically play local bars, venues but come summer the outdoor gigs pop up and I'd rather have the capabilities to do the show myself verses handing over half the gig to a production company if we can't help it.

Does what I propose doing make sense? will those 602's bridged keep up?

#4 joust

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 03:55 PM

The 602s are fairly reliable amps at four ohms (in Dual mode) and 8 ohms (Bridge). Lower than that you risk of getting into [thermal] issues!
Make sure the amps are fairly clean and fans are not obstructed; Use low (</= 12) gauge cabling for the speakers; I recommand a rack space between units for thermal evacuation;
If you keep the amps warm (not hot!) and when pushing bass, you don't overload or clip the amp, you'll run great gigs!
Make sure you have the correct voltage (possibly 120V; Don't let the supply go into a brownout situation : AC voltage too low!) to power the amps and that you have headroom for the power section.

Hope this helps!

Alain

#5 CaptainBetty

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 04:06 PM

Awesome... thanks Alain! That eases my mind a bit. Since the QSC's are all powered subs we also only sending 100hz on up to the Yamahas... so not too much low end is hitting the tops.

We do have a nice sized rolling rack (thank God) that we're going to start using so we can house those amps. I'll be sure to allow for adequate ventilation.

#6 dakos

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:21 AM

My $0.02...
In addition to what Alain said, IMHO, since you do this professionally you need a small business plan. It doesn't make sense to buy a rig big enough so you can do every show that comes your way. You should try and define what constitutes 90% of your gigs and try to buy the rig, so you can handle all those gigs with your own gear. As for the remaining 10% of the gigs you don't have enough rig for and what type of gear you should buy, that's a good question. You should find out what type of gear your local pro audio rental companies have and buy matching gear. This way you can use the audio rental companies gear to up scale your own rig, so you can do those 10% of the gigs with minimal additional cost. 500 people outdoors is not such a small show (not big either), does it go into the 10% or the 90%?

Do you center cluster your subs or you put two under each speaker?
Avi

#7 CaptainBetty

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:08 PM

Avi... thanks for your $0.02!!! It is greatly appreciated (and worth more than 2 bits!). You are right, we do need a biz plan in place for this. I think our main thing is is to be able handle up to a certain size on our own. We're at the point where we'll be bumping our rate and it may be more feasible to hire production at certain price points; but right now we're kind of at that mid point where it makes more sense to handle certain gigs ourselves rather than walk away with almost nothing after production, booking agent and paying the band - what's left doesn't cover the bills.

As for the subs... right now we only have 4 of the K181's... so typical shows we just side stack, if a stage or larger venue is involved we'll run them across the front. I hope to double them so we can push a bit more air and have some flexibility.

#8 dakos

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:44 PM

So, lets do the math...
Every KW181 is $1400X4=$5600.
Two 602's $200 each X2=$400.
A pair of S215V = $600.
You have a $6600 invested for a 6dB maximum theoretical increase in low end SPL and doubling of your coverage using your other pair of S215V.

Make sure you read and understand this:
http://www.peavey.co...ancellation.cfm

Avi

#9 CaptainBetty

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:34 AM

Avi...

Thanks for the link. I think I did read that somewhere before and I'll take it more seriously as I think we've experienced that to some extent. It's really good information.

So are you saying doubling our rig isn't worth it? We can get a pretty good deal on the subs, but it's till a good chunk of change.

#10 dakos

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 10:03 AM

No no, I'm definitely not saying to buy or not to buy. At first I did think it wasn't worth it, so I started to look for better alternatives, when I couldn't find better alternatives I ended up agreeing with you. The thing is that it makes the same difference to our ears going from 1W to 2W as it is going from 10000W to 20000W it just costs allot more. It's a big investment for that 6dB gain but after verifying that going the JBL + Crown route, or the Peavey route or QSCs route doesn't make allot of difference, like I said I ended up agreeing with you :)

Just make sure you really need it.
Avi

#11 CaptainBetty

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 10:33 AM

Sorry to revive this but I need to gain some knowledge.

With our rig (2x yamaha s215v rated at 1000w RMS) and 602's bridged (not sure the max... I think 1200).

Am I adjusting the output wattage of the amp - thus to the speaker - by adjusting the attenuation on the amp?

so when I peak the amp (setting it's max input) and the knob is, say at 2 o'clock, am I running the amps at 75% or say 800watts?

In my mind... I think of that as the "gain" knob on the mixing board. You're bringing the signal into the amp, you're allowing the max signal to come in before going out. Correct?

I think I read somewhere that amps are amps... their rating is their rating and that's what they output no matter which way you turn the knob. Right or Wrong?

So if I peak the amp with pink noise to set max - what am I actually doing? Amy I setting the actual wattage output? So are my Yami's only getting 800w vs 1000+ of their capability?

I'd like to understand this to put some arguments to bed and be able to explain it in layman terms.

Update:

I've read this:

http://www.prosoundw...power_is_needed


and

http://www.crownaudi.../pdf/133472.pdf



Thanks.

#12 dakos

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 11:03 PM

No problem reviving old threads :)

The knob/attenuator is in charge of the gain, the amps max power has nothing to do with the gain. when you turn the gain to a lower position ("less volume") that only means that to get the max power out of the amp you will need a hotter signal.

Say you take a Crown XLS, it's rated at max power with signal of 1.4V. if you turn down the knobs that means you will now need more then a 1.4V in the signal to reach max power. All that is true until you reach the maximum input an amp can handle and then you begin clipping on the input stage of the amp.

I hope it clears some of the confusion.
Avi