Jump to content


Xti 6000 Cable error


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#1 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 17 October 2010 - 08:12 AM

rack:

1 x XTI 4000
2 X XTI 6000

i'm using a (Sterio Mini Jack to  2 x XLR Cable)

if I plug it into my XTI 4000, there's no problems.
but if I daisy chain og connect it directly to the XTI 6000,
the amp plays even if it's turned all the way down,
if I open Band Manager, the input bars are clipping!,,,
if I disconnect the other end of the cable (the Jack Part),
so only the XLR are attached to the amp, the Input are still clipping ??

why does the 4000 work with this cable and the 6000 doesn't?

the amp's are set to "NO DPS"
the Firmware : 1.1.3.2 --- if I try to update them to the 1.1.5.6, it won't change??

#2 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 17 October 2010 - 03:18 PM

video posted on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUO5s0Hm2QY

#3 Kevin Heber

Kevin Heber

    Power User

  • Crown Staff
  • 883 posts

Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:39 AM

Thanks for the video, that helped.  There are several things going on here:

1) stereo mini plug to XLR:  you would benefit tremendously from an unbalanced-to-balanced converter box such as the Rolls MB-15B.  This will allow proper gain staging and balanced inputs to the amps, reducing noise, solidifying audio grounds, eliminating EMI (interference), and giving you full output power.

2) DSP OFF has been modified:  I can see from the video that this preset has been modified -- so the input mode might be Ch1+Ch2 for example -- if you want a plain, 2-in,2-out default setting, press ENTER 3 times in a row (to reload the DSP OFF preset)

3) Band Manager is clipping:   the meters on BM are pre-input-knob, so they will still register signal input even with the knobs turned all the way down

4) Weirdness (XTi6k still plays with knobs down; weird-looking input clipping):  my guess is that this has to do with the miniplug-to-XLR connection, probably a ground loop.  If you must use the miniplug to XLR, make sure the positives are connected to pin 2 and the grounds are connected to pin 1.  Also, short pins 1 and 3 together.

#4 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 18 October 2010 - 05:54 PM

video response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVIDRCfeDZw

sorry if i'm to hard on you m8, don't take it personally smile.gif you're a good guy kevin smile.gif

#5 Mctwins

Mctwins

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 19 October 2010 - 05:13 AM

Hi

Is all of your amps connected to one single AC mains. 230 V 10 A is what I assume you have.

If its so then your AC main is to small. Try the same XLR-cable on the other XTi6000 and see if its not a cable issue.

FYI, you can by AC-main cable anywhere you want. Local electrical deealer should have this.
You can order this kind of cable via Supra Jenving. It is shielded and 2,5 mm2 cable
.
This cable is rated for 16 A, and that is what you have from Crown. I assume that you checked the cable pin for pin with your Fluke meusurment. Both XLR and the main. I dont think that the main cable is without ground. Then it has passed all regulation checkes.

Thanks

#6 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:11 AM

i'm running on a 3x16amp power cabel from my stove...

both amp's are having the same problem... no matter the cable i plug in it...

no. you cant buy the cable in the local store... i can order it,, for an insane amount of money...

you can buy a plug to put on the top of the cable... but thats not rated for over 10 amp..

oki... if you want it.. ill go make a video response,, with :
3x32 amp... balanced cables, pioneer cdj2000 and djm 2000, ill ground my amps... but that wont solve the problem!
because that was the setup, the first time we noticed the problem..

are you denying that the amp's have a problem ?? that I'm the source of this problem in some way??

FYI: it's not a standart power cable! not even thomann.de have the cable!they told me to order it from you guys.

I checked all cables, there are no connection between any of the pins in the xlr.

my regards to crown.

#7 Mctwins

Mctwins

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:26 AM

Hi

Fiirst of all, Im not from Crown, I am just a private guy who wanna help out.
Secondly, I am not denying that you might have a problem with your amps.

First you a sying that  it is 3*16 A from your stove ( and what is a stove ????). Do you mean 1 phase  or 3 phase
AC main 230 V ??

Later you gonna connect it to 3* 32 A?????

Regarding cable for 16 A is a standard IEC320 looks like a square. 10 A is cut in the corner still IEC320.

Look on the internet and seek for IEC320 16A or wikipedia, then you know what I mean. Check out the link.
http://www.dustinhome.se/productdetails.as...;intcmp=con_con

For me it is strange that you got a cable that is made for grounding dont have grounding. Is it the same for your second amp.
Have to ask again, have you checked the main cable with your instrument (ohms) from one end to the other??

But maybe this wont solve your problem with your amp, ground or not ground. The only thing that is clear is when you connect the XLR you have the problem, disconnect it dissapear.

Thanks

#8 Kevin Heber

Kevin Heber

    Power User

  • Crown Staff
  • 883 posts

Posted 19 October 2010 - 10:10 AM

Nice video biggrin.gif   Just as long as you know we're truly interested in solving the problem and not just making up stuff...

OK, summary so far:  yes, it's possible there is a problem with the amp.  We're hopefully getting closer to a conclusion.

1) the main problem I see here is that BM is showing a false signal.  The o-scope measurement you did between pins 2 and 3 that shows a 50Hz tone isn't conclusive because there isn't a ground (both pins 2 and 3 are active signal).  It would be better to measure between pins 1 and 2 or 1 and 3.  

2) We also have a problem that the 6k is giving output with the pots turned all the way down.

3) The schuko AC cable we provide has metal contacts for grounding oriented at 12 and 6 o'clock -- these should make contact with small grounds pin at the outlet.

I'm going to test a 6k in our lab here.  Does your other XTi6k have this behavior?  Thanks for your patience with this.

#9 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 19 October 2010 - 10:39 AM

haha  laugh.gif I actually liked making the video  laugh.gif

frist time we had this problem, were at a gig.

setup:
3x32 amp phase, balanced cables, pioneer cdj2000 and djm 2000,
8 x pd186 / 18" subs,
4 top dobbel RCF L15s800 15" with B&C DE750 2" driver.

I hope that the video is enough proof, that this is a REAL problem, and not just child's play.

so i took them home, disconnected my cooking plate (3X16amp) and connected my amps.

i'll measure between 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 this evening, and response back  wink.gif

what about the amp firmware? why cant i update it to 1.1.5.6 ?

the 2'end amp doesn't give any output, with the pots turned all the way down,
but it's still clipping the inputs.

the plug I were talking about, the one i have ain't rated for over 10 amp..
http://www.av-cables.dk/diverse_kabler_sti...rd_4585_da.html

schuko AC cable has metal contacts for grounding, yes that correct, but we dont have the ground connector plate in the wall output here in denmark, neither do we have it in the power box sad.gif

_______________________________________________________________

mctwins:

hi

I know that you are a private person, and thx for the help, I highly doubt that my cables are coursing the problem, i'd tryed several cables(new and old) if you like me to messure them, i'll do that this evening smile.gif

sorry for the hard words, this is just beginning to get to my head smile.gif

#10 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 19 October 2010 - 04:02 PM

Kevin:

measured on output from xti (xlr in)

1 & 3 = 4.4v P/P 50hz
1 & 2 = 4.2v P/P 50hz

________________________

Mctwins:

measured on cable:
0,24s, 60cm, xlr cable:  0,062 ohm

calculated:
(0,018 x 0,60) : 0,24 = 0,045ohm

I might need to calibrated my fluke, to measure this small value more precisely.

no connections between any of the 1, 2 and 3 pin in the xlr cable

#11 Mctwins

Mctwins

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:08 AM

Hi again

No offence taken smile.gif

I just get confused when you say that there isn't a ground in the powercable from Crown.

What I can see from your second video is that there is a ground on that cable, as Kevin mentioned in answer #3. I still want you to measure with ohm or summer(buzz) between each end of the powercord cable pin for pin.

I dont know how you connect stoves(ugn/spis) in Denmark but here in Sweden, the normal way to connect a stove is, if you have stove that is 400 V, L1,L2,L3 and ground without neutral.
So, you must take one of the phase from your stove L1, Neutral and ground. I would like you to show in your next video how the connection is done in your case. If it is connected as I mentioned then you don't have any neutral to your amp.

So, if my undrstanding is correct, that you dont have any grounding in your house???

Regarding problem on amp, be patient as solution will come to you from Crown biggrin.gif

Thanks

#12 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:54 AM

stove connectet to power out in wall ( L1, L2, L3, N and ground)

L1 + N = 230v 16 amp
L2 + N = 230v 16 amp
L3 + N = 230v 16 amp
L1 + L2 = 440v 16 amp.
L2 + L3 = 440v 16 amp.
L1 + L3  = 440v 16 amp.
this is not the problem...

I got a ground in my house, but you need a special plug to ground the cable i got from crown, the only problem is that it's rated to max 10 amp.
if I plug the ground plug on the cable I got from crown, it will permanently stick to the cable dry.gif

any way the power to my amp's ain't the source of the problem.

#13 Kevin Heber

Kevin Heber

    Power User

  • Crown Staff
  • 883 posts

Posted 20 October 2010 - 10:19 AM

The constant 50Hz readings on your scope just tells me that something isn't getting grounded.  You can pick up a huge ground hum (wall AC) on an o-scope pretty easily, for instance, by just touching an ungrounded probe to various things around your house.  

A quick check of our 6k in the lab here didn't yield any of the problems you're seeing, unfortunately.

What happens when you try to upgrade the firmware on the 6k?

#14 Bo Pedersen

Bo Pedersen

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22 posts

Posted 20 October 2010 - 04:39 PM

1. run CLoader_ver2_19.exe
___________________

2. Cloader shows:
Crown USB Amplifier
USB Driver Ver 1.102      

Flash Ver: 1.1.3.2
Micro Ver: 49.49.53.54
___________________

3. load file: XTI1156.s
___________________

4. Cloader shows :
Programming....
Amp has a Serial Number
Amp Address = 2
Wait - Finalizing
Amplifier Programmed Sucessfully
___________________

5. it transmits all the data (1024byte) while the amp flashes from side to side
___________________

6. the amp reboots and Cloader shows :
Crown USB Amplifier
USB Driver Ver 1.102      

Flash Ver: 1.1.3.2
Micro Ver: 49.49.53.54

___________________

if i don't connect any cables to the amp:

after only 2min:
ch1: 41.c
ch2: 47.c
ps: 35.c

after 5min:
ch1: 42.c
ch2: 48.c
ps: 36.c
and it stays there smile.gif

the fan is set to hi, but the fan starts when i power up the amp, and it stays on.

the signal diode's are always on.
but after about 10 min. the signal diode's starts blinking.
___________________

ill try to get my amp grounded tomorrow but i'm almost certain that it wont help sad.gif

#15 Kevin Heber

Kevin Heber

    Power User

  • Crown Staff
  • 883 posts

Posted 21 October 2010 - 10:45 AM

So in diagnostics mode (where you read the temperatures) it says v.1.1.3.2?   I'm trying hard not to think your 6k amps are possessed.  None of this makes much sense, even the fan operation.  In HI mode it should come on at 53C output temp.  I'm sticking with my bad grounding theory for now.