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Macrotech 2400 versus XTI4002


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#1 metalteacher

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 08:50 PM

I've just bought a new XTI4002 to replace my old MA2400. The unit works on 230V/50Hz here in the Netherlands. For subs I have replaced my old MA3600's for a MA5000i this unit has already worked too great pleasure. Normally I only do rental for Metal music. I have some questions regarding the XTI4002.

1. Is it possible to mix the xti4002 with the ma5000i?

2. will the xti4002 deliver at least the same amount of output or hopefully some more than the ma2400?

3. I noticed that there are no figures about "amplifier latency" about Crown amps. How does the ma5000i and the xti4002 compare to each other concerning the amplifier latency?

4. I got slightly worried about this amp test with an xti 4000 http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=crown_XTI-4000 Are these amplifier problems already adressed in the xti2 series?

Hope you can answer my questions

#2 dakos

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 02:58 AM

View Postmetalteacher, on 26 December 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

I've just bought a new XTI4002 to replace my old MA2400. The unit works on 230V/50Hz here in the Netherlands. For subs I have replaced my old MA3600's for a MA5000i this unit has already worked too great pleasure. Normally I only do rental for Metal music. I have some questions regarding the XTI4002.

1. Is it possible to mix the xti4002 with the ma5000i?
Most definetly possible but to know if it's in par with the rest of your system I need to know all the rest of your gear, subs, tops, mixer, processing...

View Postmetalteacher, on 26 December 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

2. will the xti4002 deliver at least the same amount of output or hopefully some more than the ma2400?
On paper it does have a little more power but it's less then 3db so it's not an audible difference.

View Postmetalteacher, on 26 December 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

3. I noticed that there are no figures about "amplifier latency" about Crown amps. How does the ma5000i and the xti4002 compare to each other concerning the amplifier latency?
Don't know about that, never needed it. Do you hear something wrong or just out of curiosity?
Any way you can try a PM to Tom directly or call/eMail the tech support for a timely answer :-)

View Postmetalteacher, on 26 December 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

4. I got slightly worried about this amp test with an xti 4000 http://www.abeltroni...=crown_XTI-4000 Are these amplifier problems already adressed in the xti2 series?
very ineresting...
It's hard for me to imagine anything other then a defective unit since the specs clearly state the rated power output to be 20hz-20Khz. I own the 4002 and I never heard a problem.
This too needs to be addressed directly to Tom or the tech support.

#3 metalteacher

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 03:59 AM

I will use the xti4002 on two tops (Stage Accompany GB152) and the four subs are LAN L300, processor is the behringer dcx2496, mixing desk is the allen & heath mixwizzard3 16:2

#4 dakos

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 04:30 AM

View Postmetalteacher, on 27 December 2011 - 03:59 AM, said:

I will use the xti4002 on two tops (Stage Accompany GB152) and the four subs are LAN L300, processor is the behringer dcx2496, mixing desk is the allen & heath mixwizzard3 16:2

I believe you have a great system and a great match for your speakers.

Are you using the dcx2496 for anything other then crossover? Eq? delay?
If these are the only things you use it and since the DAC on the XTI cann't be bipassed, it might be better avoiding the extra DAC conversion on the dcx2496 and feed the signal to the XTI directly from the mixer and use the internal DSP in the XTI for all your processing needs.

It might be a little overpower for the speakers, if you're not the only one operating the system you might want to use the internal limiter. If you need help setting it, let me know...

#5 metalteacher

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:31 AM

I'm always thought that you if you can, you should never use a limiter whatsoever. In my case I'm the only one using the set. This far I have never used my amps full power. I use the dcx only for crossover, and now with the combination of the MA2400, i have set the 2400 on 50ms delay to come in line with the ma5000i

#6 dakos

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 08:36 AM

View Postmetalteacher, on 27 December 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'm always thought that you if you can, you should never use a limiter whatsoever. In my case I'm the only one using the set. This far I have never used my amps full power. I use the dcx only for crossover, and now with the combination of the MA2400, i have set the 2400 on 50ms delay to come in line with the ma5000i

You shouldn't engage the limiter if operating your rig properly but using it as a precaution or to establish headroom is perfectly fine.

I'm confused a bit about what you said concerning not working with the amps at full power, how do you accomplish that?

The XTI has a crossover and delay functions built in the DSP so you can skip the AD/DA conversion in the DCX and gain some free sound quality.

#7 metalteacher

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:22 AM

i have set the gain structure that it will clip at +7dB at this moment, but while mixing it almost never exceeds -7dB. (at the mixing desk)

#8 dakos

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:54 AM

View Postmetalteacher, on 27 December 2011 - 09:22 AM, said:

i have set the gain structure that it will clip at +7dB at this moment, but while mixing it almost never exceeds -7dB. (at the mixing desk)

It sounds like you're on the safe side of things so it's just a terminology correction. When you turn down the amp gain you don't lower the amps maximum power output, all you do is lower the voltage gain of the amp, that means now you will need more voltage on the input to reach the maximum power.

Please update on your progress with Tom or the tech supp.

#9 Deromax

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 05:05 PM

Why do you use a 50 ms delay on an amp?  It's equivalent to pushing the speakers back 50 feet, which seem like an odd thing to do!

#10 dakos

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 05:11 PM

View PostDeromax, on 27 December 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

Why do you use a 50 ms delay on an amp?  It's equivalent to pushing the speakers back 50 feet, which seem like an odd thing to do!

He is only compensating for the difference in latency between the amps. That's why he wanted to find out what the XTIs latency is in the OP.

#11 Deromax

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 05:50 PM

View Postdakos, on 27 December 2011 - 05:11 PM, said:

View PostDeromax, on 27 December 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

Why do you use a 50 ms delay on an amp?  It's equivalent to pushing the speakers back 50 feet, which seem like an odd thing to do!

He is only compensating for the difference in latency between the amps. That's why he wanted to find out what the XTIs latency is in the OP.

No amp that I know of have such big latency.  Even a full digital console have like 2-3 ms.  50 ms of time delay would be clearly heard as en echo.  Something doesn't add up here!  Beside, the MA line of amps is 100% analog, so latency is 0.

#12 metalteacher

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:53 PM

I have the MA5000i which is a digital amp. I have also a MA2400 which is an analog amp. All digital amps seems to have latency. My question is, how much is it? If the MA5000i doesn't have latency and the xti has, I better can go look for another amp.

(I made a mistake on an earlier post, latency of the MA5000i is 1,5ms as I have been told. That would be around 50cm, that's were the confusion started. I mixed those numbers)

#13 metalteacher

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 08:40 PM

I had today a talk with a Crown tech, and he told me that the xti amps only will work at exactly 230Volts, when confronted with 225Volts the amplifier would deliver much less power say 20% less. Latency only gets in the way when using the limiters. And I will not use them for optimum sound. I decided to buy a Lab gruppen fp3400 which is a much more stable amplifier with much more sonic quality. I'm very dissapointed that Crown doesn't seem to have a good quality alternative for the Macrotech 2400 or a 3600. I would love to have a little MAi amp for my tops. The fp3400 is in the same price range as the MA5000i. The amp is not as good as the MA5000i but for the tops it will do. The sonic quality is much better than the xti, in a hearing test. The Lab Gruppen sounded much more like a conventional amp than the xti did. But it did also have the quietness and lacked the distortion a conventional amp also seems to have.

I hope Crown will upgrade the xti amps soon to I class and develope a simple version without dsp suitable to range up with the MA5000i.

#14 dakos

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 02:43 AM

The XTI6002 is class I, not like it's little brothers that are class AB+B.
The Lab is a great amp but so is the MAi, if they cost almost the same and you don't want to mess around with latency difference, isn't the MAi the clear choice?

#15 metalteacher

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 04:29 AM

It was enough cheaper to matter the difference ;o) I got it for a very nice price.... I'm still looking for a second MA5000i though.